Curse

heavenlight · May 09, 2011, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

Do people realize that there may not actually be a 'best' hero combination for every area? I mean, really. It's fairly obvious that the best builds for areas are tweaked ones - and one's that fit with a player's playstyle.

That automatically means that there is no 'universal' build, because everyone plays differently to different levels of micro and flagging to different styles of personal bars and methods.

There's quite a few combinations of builds that serve plenty well for general content - and do it fast, too. A few minutes here or there won't make a difference, particularly when the difference is typically in the players.

Just realize that there are no 'universally best' builds. There's a lot of good builds, mediocre builds, great builds, but there's no best ones. The builds that complete the DoA in 20 minutes flat aren't ideal for other areas. The builds that complete Raisu in 8 minutes are ideal for other areas. The builds that complete both in reasonable times aren't 'better' than other builds that complete both in reasonable times.

I guess I have to explain again every time a new person joins in the discussion eh?

This thread is not about the universally best build. It's about providing a base for comparing builds. Don't you ever get frustrated when someone comes along and claims that he/she has a build that can faceroll through PvE content without providing some solid numbers? For all we know the person might be running seriously dumb builds before and after changing a few builds by downloading the meta from gwpvx, PvE becomes so much easier for the person and hence his/her claim. By having a set of benchmarks, the next time this scenario happens, you could ask the person to kindly run his/her build over these areas and report the time. The timing will provide so much information to judge the effectiveness of the builds.

In fact, now that EFGJack has posted his run for Majesty Rest's, whether you're a fan or a critic of his build, you can now run your own build, come up with your own time and judge its effectiveness through your own lens of what constitutes a good build. Arguments can now be settled more easily because we have solid numbers to back up claims. No more nonsense and bickering such as the following:

Critic: All you fanboys do is suck up with no proof!
Supporter: All you critics do is criticize with with no proof!

Get it?

Dzjudz · May 09, 2011, 02:02 AM // 02:02

Looks fun, maybe I'll try Majesty's tomorrow as well.

heavenlight · May 09, 2011, 03:54 AM // 03:54

After giving some extra thought, I realize the speed clear part isn't really all that necessary. After all, we are doing this for the sake of comparison, and knowing what is an excellent completion time alone should be enough.

Right now, we just need a couple of established players run the area to determine what constitutes an excellent completion time for these areas. The first post will be modified to reflect this.

Also, I need more nominations for vanq/dungeons/missions.

LexTalionis · May 09, 2011, 04:03 AM // 04:03

I'm still not a huge fan of this approach since it's not particularly objective, but I guess since you called me out, I'll contribute.

I'm not so sure my latest version of Dwaynaway is a good example of a team build - it's not exactly a 8 person build and more of a 6 + 1 rotating person + 1 player one (You scale one or two AoD dervishes depending on area). Speed also would vary greatly depending on main job.

That being said, 2 Dervishes in Tyrian zones is horribly slow because packs outside the Southern Shiverpeaks are very small and AoD sure isn't going to win awards for single target DPS, so I swapped one for a RoJ smiter and kept everything more or less the same as the default build I have on my userpage (except I usually hate running minions, so the Necromancer is on Restoration mode here).

Just did a quick run, 11 minutes, 1 partial disconnect, latency 500~ish:

micro: Calling the occasional caster target, precast spirits before Rotscale (3 clicks), otherwise none.

Completely forgot about the lightning ghosts at Rotscale, so things got messy and 3 people died, which is pretty crappy for an ultra-defensive build. Kinda disappointed. Oh well. Good luck and stuff.

Plutoman · May 09, 2011, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavenlight

I guess I have to explain again every time a new person joins in the discussion eh?

This thread is not about the universally best build. It's about providing a base for comparing builds. Don't you ever get frustrated when someone comes along and claims that he/she has a build that can faceroll through PvE content without providing some solid numbers? For all we know the person might be running seriously dumb builds before and after changing a few builds by downloading the meta from gwpvx, PvE becomes so much easier for the person and hence his/her claim. By having a set of benchmarks, the next time this scenario happens, you could ask the person to kindly run his/her build over these areas and report the time. The timing will provide so much information to judge the effectiveness of the builds.

In fact, now that EFGJack has posted his run for Majesty Rest's, whether you're a fan or a critic of his build, you can now run your own build, come up with your own time and judge its effectiveness through your own lens of what constitutes a good build. Arguments can now be settled more easily because we have solid numbers to back up claims. No more nonsense and bickering such as the following:

Critic: All you fanboys do is suck up with no proof!
Supporter: All you critics do is criticize with with no proof!

Get it?

And I can rest in peace knowing that I'll be able to play so much easier and faster than those people who claim to faceroll pve

I don't need some competition to show that. Besides the fact that it doesn't prove anything - any one of those people claiming such and such are also gonna say they don't need to run those areas, and aren't gonna bother.

And then again there's the fact that time numbers alone aren't the best comparison. There's a lot of flaws in this style of competition. I'm not criticizing anyone's builds here, but I do believe that a competition isn't necessary. All the arguments of this build is better than this are getting rather ridiculous, and as I see it, that is all this'll turn into.

There's just too much trolling with builds, and times alone won't cure it. It's still gonna happen; thus, this is unneeded. Go ahead and do it, though. I'm just giving my opinion.

heavenlight · May 09, 2011, 04:41 AM // 04:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

And I can rest in peace knowing that I'll be able to play so much easier and faster than those people who claim to faceroll pve

I don't need some competition to show that. Besides the fact that it doesn't prove anything - any one of those people claiming such and such are also gonna say they don't need to run those areas, and aren't gonna bother.

And then again there's the fact that time numbers alone aren't the best comparison. There's a lot of flaws in this style of competition. I'm not criticizing anyone's builds here, but I do believe that a competition isn't necessary. All the arguments of this build is better than this are getting rather ridiculous, and as I see it, that is all this'll turn into.

There's just too much trolling with builds, and times alone won't cure it. It's still gonna happen; thus, this is unneeded. Go ahead and do it, though. I'm just giving my opinion.

I just removed the competition part and please reread the modified first post. That's probably why it's drawing so much confusion from the people. I only needed to know what are excellent completion times for each area to form a basis for comparison.

I seriously believe if done right, this will reduce trolling with builds especially when it comes to claims about how fast a build is. But only time will tell.

Dzjudz · May 09, 2011, 11:34 AM // 11:34

I always love Vloxen Excavations. In HM it has a few pretty large and balanced groups that can res each other, and it's very easily accessible. There is a danger of someone exploiting necrotic traversal or something, but that can be remedied by posting screens with full bars.

Jeydra · May 09, 2011, 02:58 PM // 14:58

I hit 7 minutes to kill Rotscale on my very first try. Forgot about the Elementalist spawns too and had to run back and forth out of Frozen Soil range to recast UA (I really should look into bringing Gaze of Fury for general play). Also ended up on 53% DP by the time Rotscale died, which to some extent is a natural consequence of having to control Rotscale's aggro. The time can certainly be improved with anti-Rotscale builds.

As for the full vanquish, I think I was at 14 minutes before I gave up trying to find the last mob on the map, **** vanquishing seriously, especially in a map with so many popups zzz.

Gabs88 · May 09, 2011, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

.........

I love how you blanked your name but forgot you had mercs ^^

heavenlight · May 09, 2011, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As for the full vanquish, I think I was at 14 minutes before I gave up trying to find the last mob on the map, **** vanquishing seriously, especially in a map with so many popups zzz.

The path used by EFGJack is the most optimal vanquish path and avoids the most popups. I did my vanq copying his route

I believe <9 mins Majesty's Rest is doable. But I think we can safely conclude that <10 mins is an excellent run time for Majesty's Rest.

@Dzjudz: Alright if no one disagrees, Vloxen's Excavations HM it is for the second area. The starting point is Vlox's Falls. I'll get the ball rolling and run it later in the day.

Off my head this area has popups (annoying globs), many groups of bunched up foes (go go AoEs), rezzing (Frozen Soil might be useful) and an extended fight with a final boss that keeps reanimating his melee minions (scourge sacrifice can be useful).

Dzjudz · May 09, 2011, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Just taking 7HPS I usually run it in 25 minutes (3/4 - 16 - 4, separately 23 minutes, but looking at time played on the character it's actually 25 minutes). I don't take Frozen Soil or Scourge Sacrifice because I run it just testing general builds, not running something countering specific enemies. Don't have screenshots right now, but that is a general very possible time guideline.

LexTalionis · May 09, 2011, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Vloxen Excavations is one of those areas where you can do double Dwaynaway and afk completely - there's only a few earth elementalists, none of which are particularly dangerous, the enemy healers are completely incompetent (lolBackfire) and everything balls up nicely for your Dervishes. It's a good place to show off why Dwaynaway is often so easy to play that it's playable by the severely mentally retarded. (Note: Dwaynaway does not work well for all areas without modifications)

Remember: Dwaynaway is highly defensive and isn't built to win any awards for speed. Any halfway decent offensive build is going to beat it easily.

I took my time to pick up important loot and stuff and got a little lost a few times (kept forgetting to pick up Master Gears and in any case I wasn't really paying attention)

Images:
http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5570/vlox1.jpg 4 min
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/5898/vlox2.jpg 21 min
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3546/vlox3.jpg 5 min
Total = 30+ minutes, not particularly fast at all, but total effort = 0

Skillbars are shown in pic #3, no Necrotic or whatever, 1 copy of "Fall Back!"

Statistics:
Micro: Absolutely none whatsoever unless you count calling targets. Didn't even bother to precast ST rituals.
Silver Bullet metagame skills: Frustration (lets you sleep through Zoldark), otherwise nothing. AoD would do double holy damage to undead, but this Dwaynaway runs 0 Scythe Mastery and Grenth's Aura so it doesn't matter.
Total number of skills Zoldark got off: 1 (while I was killing his minions)
Party Wipes: 0
Amount of attention paid: "Control + enter, Control+ enter... ooh gold item"

Example of a typical doublepull (most of the pressure in Vlox comes from party wide pressure and not spikes, which Dwaynaway is really really good at handling)

Yes, I know I don't censor merc names. Most of them don't exist. Did you think I'd keep 3 Mesmers on 1 account?

Mig Coconut · May 09, 2011, 07:33 PM // 19:33

The above conversation is why pure times are meaningless in discussing hero builds- people have different goals and playstyles.

Furthermore, all this "testing" requirements, while on the right track in providing a means of comparison, sound ridiculously tedious and could dissuade people from posting their builds.

This is why I favor the ratings system I posted before. It's easy to see the playstyle (glass canon? super defensive safe build?) as well as the strengths/weaknesses (lots of micro required, weak versus hexes, etc). Is an area too hard? Try a more defensive build. Want to c-space through a vanq? Use one with no micro.

For vetting, I suppose other people could try out the team build and post their own ratings of its usefulness. The overall rating could be an average of the scores. That way, people who post crappy builds but think they're awesome can be called on it.

hunter · May 09, 2011, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by LexTalionis

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3546/vlox3.jpg 5 min

That biP necro is wasted IMO, change to E/Mo prot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mig Coconut

The above conversation is why pure times are meaningless in discussing hero builds- people have different goals and playstyles.

Furthermore, all this "testing" requirements, while on the right track in providing a means of comparison, sound ridiculously tedious and could dissuade people from posting their builds.

This is why I favor the ratings system I posted before. It's easy to see the playstyle (glass canon? super defensive safe build?) as well as the strengths/weaknesses (lots of micro required, weak versus hexes, etc). Is an area too hard? Try a more defensive build. Want to c-space through a vanq? Use one with no micro.

For vetting, I suppose other people could try out the team build and post their own ratings of its usefulness. The overall rating could be an average of the scores. That way, people who post crappy builds but think they're awesome can be called on it.

hmm, me likes

Start a new thread about it, and we will see.

LexTalionis · May 09, 2011, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by hunter

That biP necro is wasted IMO, change to E/Mo prot.

I could, and that's occasionally a good idea, but then I'd have to spec my mesmers into Inspiration and actually start watching my energy and playing well! Eew! (You have a point though - BiP is turning into a bad habit of mine - it's more or less a way of getting a long-term advantage in battles)

I've actually tried that recommendation while putting Blood Ritual on a Mesmer for fastcasting, it's not too bad for us laggy people living on the other side of the world - ER Prot and ST together are complete overkill for most areas, so your other heroes can go full offensive. I'll do more runs without BiP and see how it goes.

heavenlight · May 09, 2011, 08:27 PM // 20:27

@Mig Coconut, by all means, if that's what you like to see, there's nothing stopping you (or any other people) from starting a new thread. I have my own objective, which is clearly different from yours, that I want to achieve in this thread.

Plutoman · May 09, 2011, 08:32 PM // 20:32

heavenlight, I appreciate a reasonable response. For a basis of comparison, it could be useful. For a competition, it just provokes people more.

I may or may not post some stuff up, I tend to be lazy on taking screenshots, and I only do stuff if I find it fun or need to do it.

heavenlight · May 09, 2011, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plutoman

And that's exactly why I said you'll still have trolling. Speed is not the only basis for comparison. Play style, fun factor, reliability, all are factors, and the first two there can't be judged upon.

heavenlight, I appreciate a reasonable response. For a basis of comparison, it could be useful. For a competition, it just provokes people more.

I may or may not post some stuff up, I tend to be lazy on taking screenshots, and I only do stuff if I find it fun or need to do it.

As far as Gabs goes, please stop the trolling. Your way is not the only way to play. His builds are fine, they just play in a different manner.

I guess you didn't read my previous post. I already removed the competition part. Right now, it's about establishing what is an excellent completion time for an area.

I'll appreciate if you can help but of course, don't feel obliged by it.

Plutoman · May 09, 2011, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by heavenlight

I guess you didn't read my previous post. I already removed the competition part. Right now, it's about establishing what is an excellent completion time for an area.

I'll appreciate if you can help but of course, don't feel obliged by it.

I did, which is why I appreciated it. The tone was much less hostile, and the removal of the competition idea is what I'd support. I still, in my personal opinion, don't believe it'll actually help very much, but it's very possible worth the attempt.

I don't play with glass cannon builds for the most part, so my times will probably be slower, but if I do any of the areas that are agreed upon here I'll grab a screenshot of my time. I'm not going to plan for any of them, but if I do them in any of my daily activities I'll gladly do that.

mugen · May 09, 2011, 09:14 PM // 21:14

~45 mins HM tomb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-7AsBOrx8A)/ easily beatable, but it's a start until someone does far better with H

easy to test : elite zone / entrance is free / immediate from town